2004-05-01 03:33 pm (UTC)
If they're faked, whoever made them should be urinated on.
Regardless, Iraqis don't like us, peeing on them or not.
The sad thing is that after the CBS story http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
any and all allegations become plausible. It suffices to have one reputable source showing the worst to then cast a doubt on everything.
This is why the Defense Department tried so hard to defer the diffusion of the CBS story.
I have a bumper sticker that looks like this user icon. I want to mass produce them and stick em on every SOB's "little dick" truck.
Just imagine 100.000 town. Where everyone armed. And where also lives 25.000.000 armed bustanders.
Does high crime ratio in this town tell us something? Does one beleive that the people in command can control everything there? Jail abuse is not a trivial thing to catch by the way.
so because 17 assholes did that shit the other 200,000 of us are doing the same stuff?
I think us troops are the ones most pissed off at those little fucks for being so inhumane. Not just because it reflects badly on themselves, but because they've single-handedly further tarnished the reputation of the USA in the eyes of the world.
Do you seriously believe most troops over there conedone that stuff?
(you get so many "YEAH WHAT HE SAID" comment replies I thought I'd chime in for once =p )
The thing is, when one of those 17 assholes starts doing that stuff, the 16 should have stopped him or her, and notified the appropriate authorities.
If true, these allegations show not only that there are 17 assholes, but that their commanding officers don't care. There's also a pretty good chance that if this is what's making headlines, beating up detainees less severely is quite common. This wouldn't be acceptable in the soldier's home country, why should it be acceptable in some one else's.
Sure, use reasonable and possibly excessive force until the enemy is subdued. But after you've subdued them, you don't keep beating them up.
I'm not saying that all of the troops over there condone this sort of thing, but that it happens at this scale does not reflect well on the military structure.
2004-05-01 05:16 pm (UTC)
I wouldn't be so quick to label this on a "scale." That's 17 (though only 6 were cited) of 138,089 currently stationed in Iraq. That's one in 8122 US troops are rotten eggs. Those are pretty good odds. That's 138,072 presumbably good people operating under the US flag in Iraq right now, let's give them a pat on the back.
Here's the problem: soldiers are people too. What if you'd just seen your buddies killed, had them die in your arms, etc? Would you just go on like a good soldier or would you get a little pissed off? Perhaps neglect the consequences of your actions briefly? Granted, if you can't handle these sorts of things you're probably not best off being a soldier in the first place. All I’m saying is that war is a terrible stress-laden situation to be in and I don't think I can in anyway relate to the situations faced.
I'm not trying to say I condone the actions perpetrated in Iraq. Assuming they are indeed authentic, they are extremely heinous. I'm only trying play devil’s advocate and point out that perhaps there are extenuating circumstances no one understands (and perhaps no one cares to?). The sad thing is the solution to the problem will be to punish the individuals – not reconsider or examine the system that created them. It’s always better to treat the symptoms rather than the problem, right?
The best part of it is that we shouldn’t be there. The war was only fabricated to fortify the world’s oil supply (and get an American hand in the cookie jar if you will). If we spent the equivalent amount of money on technologies to reduce or remove completely our dependence on foreign resources, we would quite likely be in a better situation.
Well, I understand what you're saying about the stress, frustration, etc. But, the military can and should predict that'll happen, and train and supervise accordingly.
I totally agree that we shouldn't be there as we are. There's one reasonable, but not presented justification for the Iraq war, human rights. It's why the UN took Milosevic out of power, and it'd probably work in Iraq too. If GWB and friends had presented the war in those terms, then maybe there would have been a global consensus, and the thing would have been done right.
But it's a moot point to take an abuser out of power if you're going to abuse the people yourself. It just doesn't make sense to go 'liberate' a country and then piss on the citizens. For a liberation mission, it's absolutely imperitive that you don't oppress the newly liberated. I don't have any experience in the military, but I imagine troops would have frequent (at least weekly) briefings including operational goals, one of which should be equivalent to 'don't make these people hate us anymore than they already do.'
I think that most troops dont condone that stuff. But how many actually realize like you do, "that they've single-handedly further tarnished the reputation of the USA...?"
Too many troops have the eat shit and die mentality towards enemies without thinking about the big picture. Troops all need to think, "What could be the repercussions if my actions are made public?"
Mike, could you please send the word out! ;-)
I think that's completely off base. Troops should not base their actions on "What if they find out?" Crimes are not wrong because you get caught. You get caught because you did something wrong.
No, I doubt most troops condone it over there, but it's a PR nightmare, like Guantanamo Bay. We were supposed to be the ones who didn't do this type of stuff. But all the troops are human and make mistakes or get carried away. It's such a harrowing situation that many (not all) lose sight of their humanity and make mistakes. They shoot innocents by mistake, bomb civilian buildings, etc. It isn't as bad as in Vietnam, but anytime you give a person a gun and power over someone else....
2004-05-01 05:07 pm (UTC)
No, I'm sure most are acting and doing exactly as they're told.
That doesn't make me like what's going on over there any more, though.
That is the scary thing. Doing as they are told without thinking for themselves. Incidentally, the Commanding General for all of these MPs did not go to this cell block to see if everything was going well. Instead it seems that the special ops CIA guys were in and out and intimidated her. Seems the CIA doesnt want to take any blame.http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/international/middleeast/02ABUS.html
shit...link no good.
Go here and click the headline that reads,
"Reuters General Suggests Abuses at Iraq Jail Were Encouraged"http://news.google.com/
2004-05-01 04:42 pm (UTC)
And we wonder why the rest of the world hates us!
I hope the soldiers that did that stuff will see jail time.
My brother is serving in the Marine Corps. He's in Iraq right now (specifically Fallujah) and called my parents in NY a few weeks ago.
His story is this : His infantry group caught an Iraqi and was holding him prisoner. My brother, feeling anger and extreme sadness at watching his friends being killed, began throwing rocks at the prisoner and shouting obscenities. He was caught and detained by M.P.
The end of the story? No.
2 weeks later he called again and said that while walking around the base one night, the same prisoner tried to escape. My brother ended up killing him.
Now in an "ideal" world, you would think that he would be punished for this seeing as how he killed a man he originally harassed. But no...he was "promoted" as he puts it and sent to Fallujah. No discipline being taken for the original crime. Personally, I think he was punished more seeing as how many marines are being killed there.
It's just a strange time. He says he is literally under too much mental and physical strain to carry on much more. And he also says that he is not the only one who has "done things" to Iraqi's.
2004-05-04 12:54 pm (UTC)